News:

Please begin sharing multitrack files as FLAC files. Read more here!

 

Author Topic: Mixing with bad headphones: eq on master, and more  (Read 6597 times)

  • No avatar
  • **
September 23, 2012, 05:04:51 PM
Well, that VRM thing has to be a fabulous thing for what it seems, but honestly it doesn´t interest me, thanks anyway.

  • *****
September 23, 2012, 05:21:43 PM
I haven't tried the VRM, but I have used the ToneBoosters plug:

http://www.toneboosters.com/tb-isone/

It's useful, even the free demo mode is useful if you adjust it correctly (though it won't store your presets til you buy it!)

To me, if you are referencing to good commercial mixes frequently, you can overcome a  lot of the shortcomings of your monitors. You need to be very familiar with them, so listen to lots of music on them (or on your headphones in this case.)

Having a well treated room and good monitors is not to be overlooked, of course, and I'd aspire to that (even once you have a good room and good monitors, you'll still be aspiring to better ones!)

The biggest advantage of the monitor emulation plugs is that you can hear some low end cancellation, if it's happening, and the panning is less extreme, as well. I've used the plug-in, and after setting it up, I can sit in front of my monitors and it sounds pretty much the same on the headphones. Of course, in front of the monitors, every move of my head changes things a little, which your brain uses to further analyze the sound. With the headphones, you don't get that effect.


  • No avatar
  • ****
September 23, 2012, 06:08:15 PM
I haven't tried the VRM, but I have used the ToneBoosters plug:

http://www.toneboosters.com/tb-isone/

It's useful, even the free demo mode is useful if you adjust it correctly (though it won't store your presets til you buy it!)

To me, if you are referencing to good commercial mixes frequently, you can overcome a  lot of the shortcomings of your monitors. You need to be very familiar with them, so listen to lots of music on them (or on your headphones in this case.)

Having a well treated room and good monitors is not to be overlooked, of course, and I'd aspire to that (even once you have a good room and good monitors, you'll still be aspiring to better ones!)

The biggest advantage of the monitor emulation plugs is that you can hear some low end cancellation, if it's happening, and the panning is less extreme, as well. I've used the plug-in, and after setting it up, I can sit in front of my monitors and it sounds pretty much the same on the headphones. Of course, in front of the monitors, every move of my head changes things a little, which your brain uses to further analyze the sound. With the headphones, you don't get that effect.



The Tonebooster and VRM are apples and oranges though. The VRM is a room AND monitor simulator.  The list of monitors used is pretty extensive and very helpful.

As for moving of the head. If the dispersion patterns of the speakers are good, everything is set up right and all of the first reflection points including the ceiling and wall behind (if close to you) are treated you should get very little sound change when moving your head unless you go way outside of the right listening position horizontally and vertically.  That affect should be almost non-existent.

(I would bet less than 1% of studio engineers and musicians have their systems and room right.  Sadly maybe only 20% of high end listeners do)
Equipment-Trends Micro amp w/ Paradigm Export speakers ports covered.  Use Fx EQ for  studio room issue fix.  Also use Klipsch S4 & Sennheiser HD-280 phones - home stereo= AMC 3030 tube amp, Triangle Celius 202 speakers & Behringer para EQ for room nodes-laptop=HP 8430 w/Digigram VXPocket & Reaper

  • *****
September 23, 2012, 06:28:10 PM
I think that depends on the type of speakers. Most nearfields are designed to be placed pretty close (3-6 ft) and directed at the listener, at ear level. In that scenario, moving your head will result in changes to the high end, of course. But our brains are very good at deciphering what is a change in the source, and what is a result of movement.

As the the tone boosters plug, it does do room emulation, though the algorithms are surely different from the VRM box. It works well enough, and it's free to try out.

If you do try it, though, make sure to calibrate it (finding good instructions for this is a bit hard, I found.) I did it by playing a mono track, then adjusting the head size, ear size, HRTF settings until it sounded like a mono source, directly in front of me.

Nothing is more important that being familiar with your monitoring environment, though. Hours in front of your speakers is the biggest thing.

  • No avatar
  • **
September 24, 2012, 08:55:26 PM
I haven't tried the VRM, but I have used the ToneBoosters plug:

http://www.toneboosters.com/tb-isone/

I've tested it a bit, but since I have little experience in monitors, my approach is to be more intuitive than anything else. The only downside I see is that, being designed for high-class headphones with flat response, I still have the problem of what exact frequencies attenuate to correct the coloring of my cheap headphones, but well it is still early, I´ll do a few mixes with it to see how it goes and if I solve it. Great discovery, thanks!

  • ****
September 25, 2012, 01:18:01 AM
It may seem obvious, but I find a helpful practice when mixing in headphones (often for the deadline of the cabinetpin.com 20th of the month challenge) is to mix, in the headphones, in mono.

And also just like with speakers, it can be helpful to keep the volume low, and to change the headphones used.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 01:19:41 AM by vvv »

  • No avatar
  • ****
September 25, 2012, 12:28:51 PM
I haven't tried the VRM, but I have used the ToneBoosters plug:

http://www.toneboosters.com/tb-isone/

I've tested it a bit, but since I have little experience in monitors, my approach is to be more intuitive than anything else. The only downside I see is that, being designed for high-class headphones with flat response, I still have the problem of what exact frequencies attenuate to correct the coloring of my cheap headphones, but well it is still early, I´ll do a few mixes with it to see how it goes and if I solve it. Great discovery, thanks!


Sennheiser HD-280s, which are one of the phones VRM designed around, are not expensive
Equipment-Trends Micro amp w/ Paradigm Export speakers ports covered.  Use Fx EQ for  studio room issue fix.  Also use Klipsch S4 & Sennheiser HD-280 phones - home stereo= AMC 3030 tube amp, Triangle Celius 202 speakers & Behringer para EQ for room nodes-laptop=HP 8430 w/Digigram VXPocket & Reaper

  • No avatar
  • **
September 26, 2012, 06:16:07 PM


As for moving of the head. If the dispersion patterns of the speakers are good, everything is set up right and all of the first reflection points including the ceiling and wall behind (if close to you) are treated you should get very little sound change when moving your head unless you go way outside of the right listening position horizontally and vertically.  That affect should be almost non-existent.

(I would bet less than 1% of studio engineers and musicians have their systems and room right.  Sadly maybe only 20% of high end listeners do)

I beg to differ.

Moving your head left to right changes the distance relationship between your head and each speaker. Even with an optimum listening environment, and speakers with optimum dispersion patters, this will still cause comb filtering. It's a law of physics that you can't escape.

When something is panned to the center, each speaker is producing an identical signal. If the distance from your head to one speaker is different than the distance from your head to the other speaker, then one signal will arrive at the listening position delayed relative to the other signal. Comb filtering.

Also, when one speaker is closer to the listening position than the other, you will get a dramatic shift in the stereo field due to the differences in both the arrival times and relative amplitudes of each speaker at the listening position. This is something that you cannot escape.

Is it detrimental? No. Because we are so used to the effect that our brain can compensate for some of the change. But does it change how the speakers sound when you move around? Absolutely.
___________________

www.xandermoser.com
___________________

  • No avatar
  • ****
September 26, 2012, 10:59:54 PM


As for moving of the head. If the dispersion patterns of the speakers are good, everything is set up right and all of the first reflection points including the ceiling and wall behind (if close to you) are treated you should get very little sound change when moving your head unless you go way outside of the right listening position horizontally and vertically.  That affect should be almost non-existent.

(I would bet less than 1% of studio engineers and musicians have their systems and room right.  Sadly maybe only 20% of high end listeners do)

I beg to differ.

Moving your head left to right changes the distance relationship between your head and each speaker. Even with an optimum listening environment, and speakers with optimum dispersion patters, this will still cause comb filtering. It's a law of physics that you can't escape.

When something is panned to the center, each speaker is producing an identical signal. If the distance from your head to one speaker is different than the distance from your head to the other speaker, then one signal will arrive at the listening position delayed relative to the other signal. Comb filtering.

Also, when one speaker is closer to the listening position than the other, you will get a dramatic shift in the stereo field due to the differences in both the arrival times and relative amplitudes of each speaker at the listening position. This is something that you cannot escape.

Is it detrimental? No. Because we are so used to the effect that our brain can compensate for some of the change. But does it change how the speakers sound when you move around? Absolutely.

While you are technically correct it should not be drastic or a common occurrence unless you move drastically from the sweet spot (or maybe have planar speakers that beam). If your set up, room treatment (especially ALL of the first reflection points) and system are good you should be able to move your head (not body) left to right and notice very little if any change. If you do (assuming you do not have planars) something is amiss.  VERY few people actually treat all first order reflections and that includes everywhere you can see each speaker. That means TWO places on each wall, the ceiling, the floor and maybe behind you. if you have never done or experienced that then you might want to and then revist your response.
Equipment-Trends Micro amp w/ Paradigm Export speakers ports covered.  Use Fx EQ for  studio room issue fix.  Also use Klipsch S4 & Sennheiser HD-280 phones - home stereo= AMC 3030 tube amp, Triangle Celius 202 speakers & Behringer para EQ for room nodes-laptop=HP 8430 w/Digigram VXPocket & Reaper

  • ***
December 11, 2012, 07:25:24 PM
Since you don't have a lot of money, invest in some good gear that isn't expensive, such as the Sennheiser HD280s which are not expensive, I paid $105 Canadian for mine.
GEAR: 2010 iMac, Roland Quad Capture, Logic Pro 9, Yamaha HS80M speakers, etc.